Andy Berry, Montane Lakeland 100 Winner

A Chat with Andy Berry, Montane Lakeland 100 mile winner. We talk a little about his race, but more on his overall mindset and outlook on running 24 hour classic Rounds against races. Also what he is up too next, and should poles be allowed in Bob Graham attempts.

Andy Berry Montane Lakeland 100 Winner  Pic Adrian Stott

Quick look back at Montane Lakeland 100

AS. Firstly, How are you? How have you recovered from the 100?

AB. Yeah, all good. I haven’t done a lot this week if I’m honest.

 I think I’ve come out with no injuries, so that’s a win. It’s good. 

AS. So, I’m aiming not to cover what you have probably covered before, with other people, or may have done.

 As a bit of background, where were you from originally?

AB. So, I was born and bred in County Durham. It’s just a small pit village outside of Durham City. 

AS. And is that where you still live? In Durham?

AB. Yes, I still live in Durham and sometimes in my van!

AS. When you’re not running or training, how do you earn your pennies these days? 

AB. It’s split around 50/50, I am a plumber, and I also coach now.

AS. And is the coaching growing quite well?

AB. Yes. It’s going well. Last weekend helped. I am not going to lie!

It’s quite a personal thing. I want to take people on the same journey I had. They might not reach the times I have done, but setting them on the journey to their goals is how I see it. I feel quite invested in the people who come and work with me. I think that that’s maybe part of the problem with some people. I think some people that coach online, see it as an easy way to clock in some money a month. I think my love for running prohibits me from seeing it like that. I’d be gutted for two reasons.

A. I’d be gutted if I got somebody injured from overtraining them. 

And B, I’d be gutted if I wasn’t helping them achieve what they wanted to.

  AS. You’re offering a bit more. You’re a bit more discerning? 

 AB.Definitely. I like the detail of it. Don’t get me wrong, as there are a lot of good coaches out there doing good things.

AS. The Lakes 100 has probably been covered a lot by various people already. In some ways, Lakeland is almost over. You get to a point where you need to move on. You don’t want to re-live it too much?

AB. Oh, certainly. I enjoyed it, so whilst recovery has been good, I woke up on Thursday and felt more like myself.

 Once you get past that, then it’s definitely like, “OK, what’s next? Let’s get back to work.”

 AS. Have you had a chance to chat with Jarleth? We exchanged messages, and he is good. (Jarlath McKenna, who came 2nd at Lakeland 100 after leading for a good part of the race.)

 AB.No. I keep meaning to message him, but I haven’t yet. I will do it. I definitely will do it this week.

Jarlath McKenna, above Pooley Bridge.Long time leader of 2023 Lakeland 100 Pic Adrian Stott

AS. I am sure he would appreciate that. He ran a good 100 miles. It’s just that Lakeland is 105, and he ran out of steam, but he did so much right for his first 100. 

AB. He did. I couldn’t touch him on the flats. Like, he went past me on the old coach road, like I wasn’t there.

Those eventful final 5km of the Lakeland 100

AS.Briefly talk through your version of that last 5k again where you came past him.

AB. I had given up on catching Jarleth at the last unmanned checkpoint. I was told, by a spectator, that he was twenty minutes ahead. I had in my head that if the gap was ten minutes at Tilberthwaite, with how I can climb hills and descend that technical section, that ten minutes felt doable. Twenty minutes felt like too much. So I was like, right, okay, first place is gone, but you don’t want to lose second without an absolute fight now. So I was pushing to solidify second place. Then as I was climbing out of that last checkpoint at Tilberthwaite, I saw a runner, and I was thinking, “Oh. It’s not him.” And it wasn’t him. But I was thinking, “Pretend it is him and chase him.”

Because if you’re chasing that guy, third place is going to have to do something special to come and get you. So that’s what I did. I chased this random dude who just disappeared off into the distance. Then as I came over the lip, I saw a runner with an open tracker on his shoulder.

 I was just like, “Oh! That is him.” And I looked up, and he was talking to two hikers. So in my head, I just made that split-second decision that if he’s injured, he’s got help, and he’ll get sorted. So it’s just pedal to the metal time. I just pointed myself down the technical side of that descent and opened up. Just saying to myself, “Trust your brain, trust your brain, ignore the pain, trust your brain”, all the way down. I expected that he would jump up and give chase. So when I hit the road where I knew he was so strong, I was doing my very best and saying things to myself like, “This is why you do strides, this is why you do strides. ” I was trying to think of my form. “This is why you do strides.” And then after that run-out, just going, “You want this more than him,” just over and over again in my head. Pushing as hard as I could down the tarmac and nervously looked over my shoulder, all the way back. Even when I was coming down the road to the school, I was looking over my shoulders, and everybody was shouting. “He’s not there!” but you never know, do you? 

I also had that kind of 100-mile brain mash-up when I crossed the line. I needed somebody to tell me it was Jarlath who had sat down. So I said, “Was that him on the side of the track?” And the guy was like, “Yeah. You’ve won!” And I was like, “Oh! That’s all right then.”

 Andy Berry rollling down to Troutbeck. Montane Lakeland 100 2023. Pic Adrian Stott.

The mindset for  training, long days in the hills and racing. 

AS. I’ve always looked at running, that you have the outer runner, which is you, planning your schedules and doing the actual running. Then you have this Inner Runner, which is what actually motivates you to get out the door every morning and do everything and process all the experiences you have. Over the years, and especially the last two or three years, it seems like you’ve been concentrating more on FKTs and the big rounds rather than races. Can you compare the inner feeling you get at the finish of a big round, to how you felt at the end of the race last week?

AB. So for me, my challenge has been to try and find what I love about the big rounds and transfer it to a trail race. I think the Lakes 100 was the first time I really put that to the test. I find it very different. The big rounds are just a huge day out with my friends, and there is that aspect of putting everything into it. Ultimately, there are only a few people who know what’s happening and are part of it. At the 100-mile it was super fun to have a race with all the marshals there, and to say thank you and yee-haw my way through the checkpoints. It was awesome. You know, the big crowd at the end, it was great, great fun. There are still different things I can’t quite still put my finger on it. I’m just concentrating instead on looking at the experiences as well. 

Why can’t I just enjoy it for what it is and try to get my preparation the same for each of them? For Lakeland, for instance, I would have been happy with that time if it had been first place, third place, fifth place or tenth place. Whatever I ran on the day, it was everything I had on the day. I executed my plan as well as I could, and there were only a couple of small things that I would have changed, and they are minor. I would have taken painkillers earlier for a start. 

AS. That’s a great answer, by the way. It rings a lot of bells for a lot of people,

 What would you say you get the most enjoyment out of? Taking on a 24-hour classic round, or a personal challenge? Or running a 100-mile race?

Or is the whole journey of training and getting to the start of these things just as important as well?

 AB. I couldn’t put it better myself. I think that when you say about the last two or three years, for me, that was maybe as far back as four years ago. It was a definite change. Rather than building up to an event and feeling this huge weight of pressure of “It has to go well. You’ve put all this into it.” I had a huge mindset change where it was just the whole thing is a journey. I love running, and I love running in the mountains. Each time, it comes around again to test that training. That’s all it is. It’s just a test of the training and taking all the experiences that you’ve taken from the last few things you’ve done, and then applying them to this new one. Try a couple of new ideas and see what you can do. Don’t believe in the bars that you previously set for yourself. Don’t believe in limiting your performance. Love it for what it is, which is running in the mountains. I have a natural competitive edge that will show itself when it’s needed. I don’t really need to worry about the competitive side of it. For instance, at Lakeland, I was running my race the whole way, until I saw Jarleth. I don’t have to worry about that because the competitive monkey takes over, and he’s got control of the wheel, and he’ll find that extra little bit in there. I don’t worry about that kind of thing. I’ve also found on the rounds that I have that same thing at the back end of rounds.

 When the going starts to get tough, as long as I can dig myself out of the hole enough to put my hand on the edge, something about my nature kicks in to pull me out. We get going again, so let’s go! I think we saw it in the 24-hour when I was two minutes down on Kim on top of Red Pike and took it from two minutes down to 22 minutes up in the course of the last three and a half hours. It’s learning all about that, about yourself, and enjoying the ride. I love running. Sometimes I need a little boot out the door at 5 am in the morning, but it doesn’t take much. Just a hand on the back of the neck and a “Have a nice run.”

 AS. You’ve often mentioned in some of your blogs I’ve read, and some of your Instagram posts, that you face up to going beyond the “fear of failure.” In some ways, there’s an aspect of spontaneous problem-solving. Can you elaborate on how you go beyond a “fear of failure” and treat everything as an experience in some way?

 AB. Yes. Absolutely! I would rather aim for the hardest things I can and fail than look back at easy races or records that I could potentially do. It might sound a bit harsh, but I think there’s an area of running at the minute, which is geared up for saying that you did something, whether you’re the fastest left-handed 45-year-old, or whatever it is. It’s kind of like, that’s great, and if it makes you feel great, that’s great. But for me, it has to be a little bit deeper than that. I’m not going to learn off claiming prizes that I may go for. I’m only going to learn by finding things that are too big for me and then see whether I can get closer to it.

  I’m not a full-time 24-year-old Salomon athlete living in the Alps. I’m not going to go and start challenging those guys. It has to be realistic. But as long as it’s in the realm of realism, then why not?

 I’m coached by Kim Collison, and I trust my coach. My partner is an ultra runner herself and very involved in my training. So I always voice it with those guys first, and I trust them to tell me if I’m aiming ridiculously high and setting myself up for failure. Again, if we’re in the ballpark, then why not?

 AS.Backtracking a little bit. I don’t know your life story by any means. Reading some of your blogs, especially one I read on your winter Tranters Round it’s obvious you have developed some serious winter skills training somewhere along the line. Is that just something you picked up? Do you have a climbing or outdoor background at all? Have you got involved in climbing before?

 AB. No, not in any meaningful way. So my Mum and Dad were both climbers. My Mum quit after she had a bad accident, and my dad just quit with time. So it was always like rock climbing books kicking around, and I would flick through them as a kid. You know, rock climbing films on and all of that, plus general talk when we were on hikes, about climbing. I just developed a love for being in the hills. We could be out in the hills, and I would see a route and end up scrambling up it.

 In terms of winter skills, my brother-in-law is a climber. Winter climber and everything. When I first got into mountain running, especially in winter, he took me out and said, right, if you’re going to do anything more serious than this, you need to go and get some better training, but this is how you do a self-arrest. This is how you do this. This is how you do that. Then we messed around on the side of a hill for a day. That’s how I learnt to try and look after myself. Other than that, it’s just lived experience of getting out there and doing it.

 AS. I read a lot of running books to keep in touch. Although I have never climbed, I also read climbing and mountaineering books. In many ways, climbers and mountaineers have a much broader adventurous mindset than a lot of ultra runners, in my opinion. Do you think that there’s something from their mindset that runners can learn from? 

AB.Absolutely. One of the big ones is when a rock climber, you know, has a project. They understand that the project isn’t going to be completed on the first ascent. They have to get so far up. Then, they’re going to find a move they can’t quite do. So they’re going to have to learn that move, even if that takes a whole winter of training, and they come back to it next year. They get that move done. A project could take a while. Look at Tommy Caldwell and Dawn Wall. It took them what, six, seven, eight years or whatever, like to figure this thing out, hanging on a cliff on a rope. I see myself running more in that vein than just wanting to run up and smash things. It’s not as holistic, is it? It’s kind of, “You need to feel it more.”

 AS. It’s something a bit more beyond the physical in some ways, and a fascination with the whole mindset that I have in my background too. You’re doing it at the elite level, but do you think it can apply just as well to people you coach who might be just chasing the cut-offs at the back of a race?

 Andy Berry at Skelwith Bridge. Montane Lakeland 100 2023.Pic Adrian Stott.

AB.So, I had this moment before I did the Lake District 24-hour record where I was lying at night thinking 24 hours and one minute, and I’m done. And then I had this moment where it’s like, for so many people, that’s the Bob Graham. And that’s what they’re chasing. So I see it just the same. Just because the goal is different,it doesn’t mean the feelings, or the techniques or whatever can’t be applied. I think that it comes back to as long as it’s a realistic goal, whatever your level, then you can apply the same journey mentality to it.

Lakeland 100 high drop out rate.

 AS.Slightly off tangent, but related to that as well, the Lakeland 100 has quite a high dropout rate. It is a challenging course which should never be underestimated.. Do you have any thoughts on why that might be? Is it the people just taking on too much? I don’t fault Marc because Marc certainly accepts and encourages people that are totally capable of doing it. In other words, they have the right application. However, in the 100-mile race, it’s anything between a 30% and 40% dropout rate, which on paper seems high. ( Note, Marc is Marc Laithwaite, Race Director of Montane 100 and 50 mile races)

 AB. I think it’s probably a multitude of things. One of the most interesting insights I had, was from Jess, my partner. She has done the 100-mile three times. Each time, she has suffered from stomach issues or some form of issue, on the way. I asked her, “How many bottles do you fill at every checkpoint?” And she said, “Well, two.” And I said, “Well, I filled up two at every checkpoint, and I was drinking two between checkpoints.” But the time that I was moving between checkpoints is an hour faster than her between every checkpoint. That means that a lot of people in the middle of the race are probably suffering from dehydration, even if they think they’re not. Even on a relatively cool year, I was doing somewhere between 750ml and a litre between checkpoints. If they’re doing the same over a longer time, that was one thing I think that maybe people could look at. Just because a minimum of a litre liquid is recommended, doesn’t mean you can’t take more with you. Maybe, a third bottle in that mid-pack, especially for those longer legs between check points might help them. 

Also, some people think it’s like doubling the 50. Maybe in distance, but most are out for well over double the time in the 100. That 100 front half is brutal in comparison. Even just the underfoot conditions, the terrain, all of that, maybe a part of that. I guess my legs are very used to the hills as I train a lot in them. Maybe it’s difficult to understand that if you’ve done the 50 or maybe a flatter 50, you have to know there will be much more climbing in the 100. You might also have done the 50 and seen the big track of say, Gatescarth or whatever, and you think it’s all like that. Then you get to Black Sail, and it’s not. Maybe a little bit of that. It’s probably a whole combination of things. But you’re right. You look at the dropout rate and you compare it to something like UTMB, and Lakeland’s a lot higher than that. There are many factors though.

The coach and athlete relationship

 AS. I’m interested in your relationship with Kim. I’ve known Kim for several years. Obviously, Kim coaches you now, and you’re now coaching other people. How does it work in practice? 

 AB.So, I could do my own coaching plan on a day-to-day basis, and it wouldn’t be difficult. But I get a lot more out of Kim than that. As you know, he’s a super nice guy. He’s super knowledgeable. I see him as a friend and mentor, so we’ll discuss things a lot about what to do next. We also look at what are my strengths. What are my weaknesses? Maybe what is realistic? What isn’t realistic? Also on a day-to-day level, one of Kim’s favourite questions is, “Is that what we were looking for in that training session?” And it just makes me stop and go, “Well maybe I pushed too hard or too easy,” and things like that. So yes. If I had to narrow it down, I’d say he’s an inspiration, he’s a safety net, and I’m struggling to think of the word for it, but he’s another amazing tool to an already full arsenal. And why wouldn’t you want Kim Collison coaching you? I told Kim the other day, “He will have to drag me out of his books with my nails digging into the pages.”

 AS. Having someone like that, who has been there and had many positive experiences, is invaluable. He’s probably, I suspect, also not afraid to tell you you’re a fool if you’re doing something stupid.

 AB. Yes! Exactly what you’re saying there!

AS. So Lydiard,( Arthur Lydiard, The Great New Zealand Coach,) always asked all his athletes, “WHY? Why am I giving you this session?” He wanted his athletes to understand what they were doing.

AB. Exactly He never tells me what to do. He always asks me a question. It is a good, two-way relationship. 

What’s next for Andy

AS. What’s next for Andy? Do you have any major projects? Any unticked boxes?

 AB. So I think that 79 is definitely still calling. The 79th top on the 24-hour. ( WritersNote 1: When Andy broke the Lakeland 24hr record, he equalled KimCollison’s 78 tops but in a slightly faster time.)

 I’ve probably got unfinished business back on the Paddy because I missed that by 23 minutes. (Writers note 2. The Paddy refers to the Paddy Buckley round. The classic 24-hour fell round in Snowdonia. Andy’s Paddy Buckley time of 15:38 was 23+ minutes slower than Finlay Wild’s record of 15:14.)But I had a massive navigation error in that as well. That cost me 18 of those 23. So maybe a revisit to the Paddy..and maybe a visit back to Scotland and a solo supported Ramsay. On my effort last year, I ran solo, unsupported, but stashed a drop bag at Loch Treig. So I might go back with a team and see what I can do with a fully supported Ramsey Round. ( Writers note 3 The Ramsay is the classic Ramsay Round of the Lochaber Hills in Scotland )

AS. I didn’t realise your Ramsay was unsupported last year. 

AB. Yeah, It was fun.

 And probably, at some point, I’ll go back to the Bob Graham as well. Just because seeing what I can do time-wise, I have no idea what that means, but as I’ve said before, I won’t put a bar on it either way.

 AS. In some ways, it seems your telling us that you’re the sort of guy that would like to improve his times on all the Classic rounds, but it wouldn’t matter too much as long as you had a good experience. Even if you were just a minute outside any perceived targets.

 AB. I’d probably keep my powder dry if I’m honest. I think if I had a terrible opening couple of legs on the Paddy, I could go away and do something else in a few weeks. I’ve got the second fastest time, so I would only be going back for one thing on that. In terms of races, I’ve got the Arc of Attrition 100-Miles in January, which has a monster field. Gavin Dale’ who won last year, is returning, and I hear Mark Darbyshire, the course record holder is in too. I think there will be all sorts of people there.

 AS. The Arc has become a really epic winter race. That’s my old neck of the woods. I was brought up in Cornwall. That’s where I started running. 

AB. Oh, nice.

AS. I was brought up on the North Coast, a bit further north from where the Arc is held. But the Cornish Coast Path is underrated because although there are no big monster climbs, like the Lakes, or Scotland, or the Alps or anything like that, it is pretty relentless. There are lots of short, steep climbs and descents.

 You’re either going up or going down most of the time.

 AB. I ran a 100K on the coast path there a couple of years ago, So I know what I’m letting myself in for.

 AS. I have to ask you this. You are obviously very much at home in the hills and love being out in nature and marvelling at its beauty. You say racing and competition has its place. But what are your thoughts on balancing competition, even like Lakeland 100, for instance, against doing solo rounds? In this growing world of, dare I say, over-commercialization of trail and mountain running, do you ever have any hankering to go to UTMB or any of the big American hundreds or anything?

 AS. Yeah, so absolutely. I would love to go to Hard Rock. That would 

be my absolute number one. If somebody gave me an entry into any race, with no questions asked, I’d take Hard Rock just like that. UTMB, yeah. I would. Although I do have issues with the organization, which makes it a little bit morally difficult for me, I guess.

 AS. You don’t have an exclusive on that. It’s okay!

 AB. But UTMB is where everybody goes to race, and it would be really fun to go and run my race against those guys and see where I end up. I think it’s difficult because I was reading that now it’s basically two races. There is the elite race, and then there is the mass start race. The elite race is allowed support, support like people in the checkpoints, and all of that. Then the mass start basically is a cow shed with a feeding station out the back. So it would be like, “What do I need to do to get into that elite pen and run that.” I don’t know. Maybe, but it won’t be next year, that’s for certain.

Should poles be allowed in Bob Graham attempts?

 AS. That’s interesting. Just one last question. Out of the three leading runners in the 100 last weekend, you were the only one using poles.

 AB.Yes. I was.

AS. They obviously help you on the uphills, but, FRA(Fell Running Association) don’t allow poles. In Scotland in hill races, they don’t allow poles. But in many trail races, you are allowed them. You obviously see the benefit of them.

 AB. Absolutely. I think it will be an interesting question. I’m quite good friends with Paul Wilson, the chairman of the Bob Graham Club. And obviously, I’m now honorary chair, honorary president with being the 24-hour record holder.

 And it is going to be a question. What do I do when next it comes to The Bob Graham? I think it’s ridiculous that you can’t use them if I am 100% honest. I think that if we can let Jack Kuenzle use the Nike 4% shoes for the road run, which have a scientific advantage over normal shoes and we are okay with that, but we’re not alright with using poles where it’s still the human body pushing the runner forward and not a carbon plate that’s positioned in two inches of foam. I think that’s like, you know, what standards are we holding here? Like Billy Bland didn’t have energy gels and things like that, to improve and increase performance. Yet Keunzle used Maurten Nutrition, which is like cutting edge and scientifically proven to give you whatever energy you need, but we didn’t let him use poles? It seems mental to me, personally. I just think it’s absolutely crazy.

 I do think it is a difficult one for Paul and the Bob Graham committee to balance tradition with evolution. I can see the sense more in races because you’ve got narrow starts, and people get them out and get in the way, and I can absolutely see banning them from fell races because some people have them, some people don’t. It keeps the level playing field. I struggle with this, with the Bob Graham Round and such things where certain new technologies are okay, and this isn’t.

 I struggle sometimes, with where the line is. As for me, I don’t agree with carbon-plated shoes. I think that it’s a bit bonkers, but once the playing field was levelled between pro athletes and the rest, I have less of a problem with it. It was only at the start when a few had them, and it didn’t seem fair. Now everyone has them.

 AS. Anyway, our half hour is up. I try to keep things to half an hour because I feel that’s a good little read. I’m sure we could talk for hours. There’s some fascinating stuff there. Not too much of it about the Lakes 100 as such, but a lot of other good stuff as well.

Thanks for the chat 

AB. Cheers. Thank you. Its been a good chat.

 Catch you later.

Full Lakeland 100 results can be seen Here 

You can read our Montane Lakeland 100 /50 preview HERE 

And our Montane Lakeland 100/50 overview with key race historical Stats HERE

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