I chat with Tom Joly. 2023 was a breakthrough year for the Spain-based, British ultra trail runner Tom Joly. He started the year in February with 3rd place at Transgrancanria 84 Km on the Canary Islands. This performance helped gain him selection to the British team for the World Mountain and Trail championships in Innsbruck in June 2023, where he finished 11th and first British runner. He followed that up with 16th place at UTMB on the weekend heading into September. He closed the year by taking the win at Translantau 140 Km, by UTMB, in Hong Kong in December. I caught up with him to chat about his 2023 and looking forward to 2024 just before his first race when he returns to Transgrancanaria to run the 125 Km classic. We also talked about life as a full-time athlete, UTMB in general, The Professional Trail Runners Association and the direction trail running is heading at the elite end….and other things. Enjoy.

AS. So how are you? 

TJ. Good.  It’s been a while since we last spoke.

 AS. It was a few weeks after the World Trail Championships in Austria last year, although we’ve had various messages going back and forth.

  TJ. Yes.

 AS.  So, when I chatted to you last summer in the aftermath of the World Trail Champs at Innsbruck, you seemed relatively happy with life and where it was going. You had a little thing called UTMB as your next target.

 TJ. That’s right

 AS. In the ensuing months, how did the prep go from early June, after Innsbruck, through to late August? Were you happy with how it went? And how did your body cope with the step up in distance to a major 100-mile race? 

TJ. I wasn’t 100% happy with my performance. It turns out I was having some dietary issues with dairy intolerance. My training post-World Champs was a real struggle. Then, five weeks before UTMB, it was a case of, well, it’s now or never. You have to give it a try and do what you can. Fortunately, the Inov-8 teammates I was staying with were both vegans coincidentally. I started cutting out all dairy because we were living together, and immediately, I began to feel much better. I got in a few good weeks of training. So, in the end, I was happy with my performance at UTMB. I felt like I gave 100% of what I had available to give. 

In terms of the step up to the distance, I had run 100 miles before in Thailand, but that wasn’t such an in-depth field, and I had caught COVID in the lead-up to that race. So it was a very different experience. I felt I put all my energy into the performance rather than just fighting off some lingering illness. So, it was a very different experience at UTMB. It is much more competitive and much more, how do you say, a lot going on around the place.  I don’t know, however, how many elites there are in the first pen. Maybe 100? Then, the second pen is another 100 elites. So the depth of field is greater than we saw at the World Champs.

 AS. How did you find your whole UTMB experience for the first time? 

TJ. Fun. I was staying in the centre of Chamonix for four weeks in total. So I got to experience the whole atmosphere and the build-up. This year, I’ll be doing it slightly differently. Spending some time at altitude further out of town and staying just outside of Chamonix during UTMB week. As much fun as it was, it was also quite hectic, and there was a lot of noise. Sleep and things were an issue.

AS. How did recovery go afterwards?

TJ. It went well. I think once I’d worked out the dairy issue, all of the usual inflammation you have to deal with wasn’t there. I feel it was probably the best recovery of any of my races last year. I think part of that was also down to good fueling during the race as well. I never got too depleted. Also, I was using different trail shoes with super energy return foam for the first time in a race. In terms of impact on the legs, it made a difference.  I could actually run again the next morning. 

AS. Which actual shoe model did you wear at UTMB?

TJ. I was wearing some Asics Fuji Speed shoes.

 I did a photoshoot with Sports Shoes and Asics. They gave us some kit, including a Fuji Speed 2 with a carbon plate and high-energy returning foam. I had been struggling to find the right shoes for longer distances.

 All the big brands now, Hoka, North Face, Nike, Asics, and Adidas, have a trail super shoe now. 

I was trying to find shoes that would work for UTMB, and the Asics did the trick. 

AS. So, do you have any affiliation with Asics and Sport Shoes now?

 TJ. No. Since UTMB, I began working with an agent. They are a potential brand that I would like to work with, but I have no current affiliation. Watch this space. 

 AS. A door opens and closes sometimes. If you’re patient and keep doing the results you’re doing, the right deal will come along. 

What was your training block like between UTMB and Lantau? It wasn’t a huge gap. Maybe ten weeks from race to race?

TJ. The morning after UTMB, I decided I would sign up for another 100-mile category race in two months. Lantau, in Hong Kong

  I had a couple of easy weeks post-UTMB and drove back to Spain. Then, I primarily spent more time on the bike in the first four weeks. I gradually built the running back up and got back into 20-plus hour weeks within three weeks of UTMB.

 Because I’d had relatively more time off after World Champs, that seemed like it was a mid-season break in many ways. I wasn’t too tired at the end of UTMB, whereas most athletes are starting to reach the end of their season. I felt like I was still good for another race.

 The training block went well in preparation for Lantau. I travelled out a week early, so I actually got to run quite a lot of the course, which paid big dividends. 

AS. And Lantau itself. How did the race go?

 TJ. The course was reduced from 140 to 130 kilometres with about 7,000 meters of elevation. When you look at it on paper, it doesn’t sound too bad, but because a lot of that elevation is in the form of stairs, it is hard. Some were stone, some were concrete, some were wood. A lot are also in quite bad disrepair. So, the vertical aspect wasn’t straightforward at all. You’re slower going up, and you’re much slower going down. It’s much more technical than a normal mountain trail. The race itself was hot and humid conditions, with some top Chinese athletes too. Yun Yan-Qiao and ZhaoJia Jhu in particular. Yun had finished just behind me at UTMB, and Zhau was a previous winner at Ultra Trail Mt Fuji.

 They are both 900 index runners. The Chinese also have a very aggressive racing style, making for a fast start. We were also joined by Anders Kjaerevik, who had also finished in the top 20 at the short trail at the Innsbruck World Championship. We were roommates during the week, so I was saying to him before the race, “This early climb is about a 12-minute effort.” Don’t attack now. I’ve seen the Chinese guys do this before, but he didn’t listen and shot off to the front with them. I just had to keep tempo-ing back up to the front.  I think I was going too hard, but in my mind, I thought, I know this course, and if I’m going too hard, these guys are going at kamikaze pace. They’re not going to be able to sustain this either. At 50K, Yun pulled away, and I thought that might have been the winning move. I kept plugging away and, at around 80 to 90 kilometres, caught back up to him. Those early efforts in the race had taken their toll on him, and that’s when the momentum shifted. I moved to the front and then just kept pulling away. At the finish, I had a one-hour lead on him.

 AS. It looked like a great result on paper. It’s revealing hearing how the Chinese strategy was in the race because when you look at it on paper, Yun was only 20 minutes behind you at UTMB, yet here you were beating him by an hour.

TJ. Yes, exactly. We were back and forth quite a lot. I was talking to him at the start about that.

AS. So you’re over an hour ahead of him here. Is that because of his race strategy, or am I tempted to flatter you and say it’s because you improved a lot in those three months and ran a smarter race?

TJ. I know I was fitter for Lantau. The conditions were a big factor as well because almost immediately after I passed him, it went from 25 degrees and humid first thing in the morning to probably only 20 degrees and pouring rain. For me, that was perfect because I was still warm and able to catch up on hydration, but Yun Qiao, he’s not good in the cold and wet at all. He was running in a puffy jacket at UTMB while I was in a vest for comparison. He and the other runners, I think struggled more in those conditions, whereas the British excelled. 

AS. Winning a UTMB label race certainly got you a bit more recognition. I certainly got a lot of chatter about, “Oh! Tom’s flying. He’s going well.”  How did you feel after that?

TJ. I was really happy with the performance.  I went in thinking, “I can win this, but to win by an hour was a great feeling.” I hope it will put me on the radar for some sponsorship in the future.

 AS. Would you describe yourself as a full-time athlete?

 TJ.Yes, 100% full-time, but elite, not professional. People often confuse the terms.  I would define a professional as someone who, at the end of the year, is making a profit from the sport. Whether that’s through sponsorship, coaching or other avenues of making money directly from the sport. At this stage, I’m very much not professional. 

AS. But you’re a full-time athlete, and you have resources to be able to get by week to week and run full time?

TJ.Yes, but full-time in terms of training.

AS. I did touch on this the last time I spoke to you, and I’ll probably refer back to it when I publish this. What have you found to be the main benefits of being full-time? 

TJ.  There is a huge benefit because when I was working, I was doing maybe 700 hours when I still had a job. That doesn’t leave you very much time to do anything else. When I moved to be full-time, I started doing a thousand hours of training a year, and yes, you get the extra 300 hours of training, but more importantly, if you’re not doing a 9-5 job five days a week, you’re getting an additional 2,000 hours a year of rest and recovery. That is additional time for strength work and mobility. Or eating the extra calories that you need. So you’re reducing your stress, or I should say, you’re reducing unwanted stress and increasing the amount of training stress that you can absorb. So there’s a sort of dual effect. 

AS. Most of the time you’re in Spain these days, up in the Sierra Nevada. Briefly describe what a week or two-week training stint looks like.

TJ. It varies a bit during the year. Mostly depending on the weather. When it’s warm, I would say I do more cycling in a week. Typically in an early base-building phase, I’ll do more cycling to cut back on the impact. Typically, a training week would be 25 hours when I’m out here.

 The splits would roughly be 50% cycling, 50% running and a few hours in the gym. So there’s no one-week or two-week block that I could say is consistent every week. Last week, I did 217 kilometres of running with 10,000 meters of elevation gain, which was 25 hours of running. So quite a big running week. This week will be slightly less, and as you get closer to an event, things can change.

AS.  We’ll come on to your upcoming events in a minute, but do you find you’re doing more event-specific work, closer to a specific event you’ve got coming up?

TJ.  Yes As I get closer, it tends to get more specific, so more of a running routine in the race prep block that I use.

That’s typical if I do that for a four-week block. That’s a good little sharpener to get me into a race condition. 

AS.So in that final race-specific block and taper, it’s more the classic, less pure volume, and more event-specific sharpening.

TJ. Exactly. Yes.

 AS. When I last spoke to you, you were self-coaching. Are you still self-coaching? 

 TJ. Yes. I am still mixing with the formula here and there, trying to see where I can make changes or improvements.

 AS. You were also just on the verge of joining Team Hour 7. 

TJ. Yes, that’s right.

 AS.  Tell me. What does that give you access to? How does Team Hour 7 work, and how do you feel you benefited from being a part of that setup?

TJ. So Team Hour 7 is a group of British elite athletes, some doing long, 24-hour stuff, and some, who are focused on short trail and ultra trail. They are currently funded privately by Dom Ashdown and Michael Stocks. 

They have put together this team based on a professional Cycling model where they provide a lot of top-end things that a professional team would get, like physio, coaching, nutrition, support with products, training camps, etc. We have access to top coaches and an exercise physiologist. We also have nutritionist Rene McGregor. Mike’s wife is a business psychologist, so we did mental stuff with her when we were on camp. We went to the Alps for a week’s training camp last summer. So they’re providing all sorts of top assets for athletes on the team, similar to what other top teams in the world are providing.

AS. The way UK Athletics is set up, all their funding is distributed from UK Sport and the lottery. It is ring-fenced for the Olympic program and Olympic disciplines.  Although up to now, funding has been available to help  mountain, ultra and other Off Track teams go to Championships, There are always ongoing discussions about whether some of that money should be applied to help off-track internationals in the areas you have been mentioning 

In a perfect world, would you like to see that?

 TJ. The whole philosophy behind the current Olympic programme funding is to win medals. I think with mountain and trail running in mind,  Britain can and does win medals. With more funding, we would win a lot more but some of our top athletes tend to go to the races where they’re going to make money. You know, like Tom Evans didn’t want to be considered for selection last year as he was concentrating on preparing for the Western States 100, which he won. You know, we didn’t have the best performance as a team overall on the long course. Some other great athletes aren’t representing, and if there was funding, they may want to. If trail and mountain running were to become an Olympic sport in the future, I feel Great Britain could win some medals there. So, I think it’s good to try and keep the funding relevant.

 You don’t want to throw money at anybody, but if someone is performing on a world stage and winning races or getting on podiums, your feeling is that merits a bit of support from somebody.  I think now, the World Champs last year was being televised and Streamed, and there was a lot more attention. With that comes in the sponsors, comes in money, comes in people switching it on, on telly or online and it’s becoming more and more warranted. 

AS. Going back to Team Hour 7 now, All those things they support you with, have you found that they’ve been of benefit, certainly in terms of getting testing and professional advice? 

TJ. Yes, certainly. I get to talk to experts I wouldn’t normally have access to. We have a GP who’s on the team as well. We receive sports products through Science in Sports (SIS) nutrition products. So, I should say I have benefited, as have others on the team.

. AS.Backtracking a little. Can you compare the experience with the GB team in Innsbruck as being part of a fully funded national team, with the whole UTMB experience?

TJ. Yes.  The team experience is very different. We were all in a hotel together in Innsbruck. Everyone supports each other, going to each other’s races. There was a wonderful team spirit. At UTMB, it’s more of an everyman-for-himself kind of atmosphere. 

 I don’t know. It’s hard to draw any direct comparisons. They are very different events, aren’t they? I suppose there’s more celebrity at UTMB week, than there was during World Champs but the World event is still growing.

 AS. There’s been a lot of chatter for years about UTMB and the perceived control and influence they hold, in some areas of the sport. The last 12 months, for a few reasons, have seen this chatter amplified, more than usual, with some leading runners questioning the whole UTMB set-up and its overall benefit to the direction of trail running as a sport.

When you see all the diverse commercial series like Golden Trail, Sky Running, the UTMB series,  and the new World Majors Series. Then, you take that together with what the annual World Mountain Running Association, (WMRA) series is doing, plus World Athletics trying to grow a Federation-led World Championships. It almost seems like too many competing interests.

 How do you see the future of trail and mountain running running evolving?

 TJ.I did a geeky bit of work the other day where I took the top 400 men, which included Courtney because she’s in the world’s top 400.

( Courtney is, of course, the American runner, Courtney Dauwalter.) I took the top 400 indexes from ITRA( International Trail Running Association), and I compared them against their Instagram following numbers. There was a gentle correlation between the two, so the better the runner you are, the more followers you have. But when I looked further, the names that stood out the most were those athletes who had performed well at UTMB week or in the Golden Trail Series. You could see the correlation. So, I think the short course Golden Trail Series is certainly one direction to go, and the long course certainly favours the UTMB series. They seem to be the two main driving forces in the sport. 

AS. Interestingly, you did a correlation with social media followers as well.

  Do you think that is because organisations like Golden Trail and UTMB not only get that harnessing social media and YouTube streams etc, is the way to reach people, but they also have the resources to self-promote to this ever-growing audience?

TJ. Yes. I think Golden Trail and UTMB  have developed the resources to stream these events on various platforms. They appeal to a growing digital audience and can attract more sponsors to these events.

AS. Connected but slightly Tangential, The Professional Trail Running Association, (PTRA) has come on the scene now. They’re making a few waves. Simplified, their stated goal is to represent the athletes and try to make sure pro-athletes are getting a good deal, while also trying to promote dialogue amongst the various strands to create a better annual calendar. 

They seem to be making a few waves and trying to join the dots etc.

 You cannot deny that commercial interests have given the sport a higher profile and done some good, but there’s almost a feeling amongst the top pro athletes that they’re not getting the best deal they could and are being taken for granted.

Where do you stand on all of that? I don’t think you are a member of the PTRA yet, are you?

 TJ. I’m not a member of PTRA, no. I don’t think anyone is taking the PTRA seriously enough at this stage. As far as I can tell, most of the members are athletes themselves, have companies, are busy, they’re running their podcasts and doing other things.

  Personally, I wouldn’t say they are necessarily the most or the best-experienced people to be dealing with large corporate businesses such as UTMB and Ironman Group. Ultimately, I think the direction PTRA needs to go in is one of funding or backing and quite serious financial backing. If you look at what the PTO, (The Professional Triathlete Organization) have done. They came in with big financial backing, and they moved hard and fast against UTMB/Ironman. They created a big wave of momentum and are now arguably the face of triathlon in a market which was dominated by the Ironman group, which had almost 90% market share.

 They’ve done that because they hired the right people, like Sam Ranouf as CEO. If you ever listen to a podcast, listen to him talk. He’s making comparisons to triathlon, golf or other big league sports, which he’s saying that it fits the model. I think trail running could fit the same model, but for PTRA to follow suit, they do need a lot more organisation. The statements that are currently being put out by the PTRA, sometimes look like they’ve been written, for social media by an eight-year-old. 

It’s not that what they are doing is wrong. I think if they just had some more money, some more time, and some more business-savvy individuals leading the charge, they could do a lot more.

 AS. What do you think their main grievance is? It’s almost like they got themselves together because they weren’t happy with things, but do they have a grievance in reality? 

TJ. I don’t know. I have been following the statements coming out between them and UTMB. It looks like the PTRA is saying, well, we’re making a fuss, and UTMB are saying we’re listening, but we don’t actually care. That seems to be the picture that I’m interpreting anyway, and the fact that members in the sport thought that they would have to lead a boycott against UTMB to gain traction, shows that the PTRA itself doesn’t seem to command any respect in the sport or hold any power.

AS. Back, away from the politics of the sport and what everyone just loves doing and racing and running. Let’s look ahead.

 Backtracking on one thing though, you mentioned you sorted your diet problems out by chance, living with a couple of vegans for a month. Has your diet stayed vegan, or are you just being dairy-careful? 

TJ. No, I wish I could go vegan. The problem I have is keeping up the calories. Dairy was a huge part of that. You realize there are loads of cheap, easy calories in dairy in its various forms. So now, it’s a bit more of a struggle. I’m feeling much better, but it’s a case of just being careful while eating enough.

 AS. As a bit of a sidetrack. I was listening to one of the Koop Casts last week, ( American Podcast by athlete and coach Jason Koop) The whole theory of, “The Periodization of fueling for ultras” filled an edition.

TJ. Yes. I think I did listen to that one. It was good.

AS. In some ways, it’s very simple. What runners have known for years,

 If you’ve got a big training load, just eat plenty. The key element that recent research has developed if you want to be a bit more scientific about it, is the app to assist in calculating fuel intake around training load etc.  Have you actually used the app and integrated things like that into your training for the heavy weeks? Or just keep old school, and eat and drink plenty to hunger pangs and thirst??

TJ.  One of the best rules I’ve heard is you can operate at about two and a half times your basal metabolic rate on a long-term basis. If you need 2000 calories a day just to survive, you can operate then at two and a half times that, which is 5,000 calories per day

 So you could do about 5,000 calories of work and be able to eat five and a half to six thousand calories because the body is not a hundred per cent efficient. So, that is your maximum ceiling for long-term performance, which, in reality, is incredibly difficult to achieve. So it’s more a case of just eating as much as you can, keeping an eye on the scales, and if things go too low, you need to cut back on the training or eat some high-calorie foods.

 AS. It’s a balancing act, and it’s not a new story. I remember being at a seminar with the GB Ultra squad. This must have been 25 years ago. Ronnie Maugham from Aberdeen University, who you have probably come across, came and talked with us. He also worked at Loughborough and for organisations like the IOC and FIFA etc. We were a group of 24-hour and 100K runners, and he was looking at calorific intake in the course of a 100K or a 24-hour race.  He and some of his students had looked at what was needed to fuel for an event, and also for a normal week’s training load.

He put it all on a table in front of us as a pile of food and challenged us all to try and eat it. The moral is, that the human body has to try and adapt itself to food intake with ever-increasing workloads etc. Research, of course, has moved on a lot in some ways, but nothing much has changed. People have always been aware of it.

But having modern-day APPS, I mean, do you actually physically count all your calories every week, or is that just getting a bit too over the top? 

TJ. Way too over the top. I always compare the calorie as a measure of energy, not of nutrition, which is key. It’s like when people say a light year is a measure of time, when of course, it’s a measure of distance. It’s confusing because the calorie is a useless metric. After all, like I said, the body is not a machine. It’s not 100% given that certain foods, when processed in different ways, absorb different quantities of calories depending on what phase of training you are in. Levels of fatigue and whatever else, could also have an impact on what you’re eating, so it’s keeping it simple. 

You’re using the body’s built-in systems of hunger or fatigue. If you fall asleep mid-afternoon, something’s amiss. Today is a great day. You called me at the right time because today is my one rest day after four weeks. So today, I’ve just been eating non-stop. I keep getting hungry every hour or so. It’s the one day I don’t have to exercise.

 AS That tells me and our readers, that you do think seriously about your diet and input, but not overly seriously.

 TJ. Yes, I don’t want to get fixated on it.

 AS. Oh gosh no. Otherwise, you’d have a calculator in the kitchen every time you looked at a saucepan. 

 Looking ahead, you’ve got Transgracanaria in less than two weeks now. 

 Which distance you’re doing?

TJ. The Classic, 126km this year.Friday 23rd March

 AS. How are things going towards that? Are you confident of a good run?

J.T. I am going to be fit. I will not be in peak condition, but the plan is never to be in peak shape in February. I think it’s pretty hard for a lot of athletes, many of whom are coming from Europe and North America, to be in peak condition in February. So those guys who have done lots of skiing, often come in quite fit, but maybe not “run fit.”

 There will probably be some guys coming in, still carrying fatigue from the end of last year. So it’ll be interesting to see. I had a terrible winter myself with colds and COVID again. The last four weeks of training have gone really well, and the fitness has come back very quickly.

AS. Do you have much competition in your race, to your knowledge?

TJ. Yes. It’s huge.

 I was going to do some more geekery, but I reckon, you know, the average top 10 index will be close to that of the Western States field from last year. Okay. It’s going be that sort of level of race. I haven’t had a close look at it yet because you tend to get a few dropouts anyway,

 so it’s only in the last week you get to know who’s definitely going to be there.

 There’s an elite field of 45 in the men’s field of over 800. I think I’m ranked about 15th.

AS. Looking further ahead, beyond the Canaries, there’s a little event happening in Annecy at the end of May. Is that still on your radar? 

(The European Off-Road Championships, including a 65km trail race, take place in Annecy, France, at the end of May.)

TJ. Very much on the radar. Nothing is a given, but I’m hoping to get selected from my World Champs performance from last year, with Trans Gran Canaria helping to show my current fitness. (NOTE: Tom finished just out of the top ten in 11th, and first British athlete at the Long Trail race at the world event in Innsbruck last June.) 

 AS. Just briefly, the big news in the last week was about Stian Angermund.

(Stian Angermund, the Norwegian double world trail champion who, it was announced last week, failed a drug test at OCC. last September. )

You can Read the AW article on Stian Angermund HERE

 Any comments on that?

TJ. Yes. it is sad that someone thought of so highly in the sport has returned a negative test.

Posts you see from other fellow athletes and countrymen are saying he’s quite a humble guy, and it’s not like him for this to be an actual case of doping. It seems to be the case though, as both A and B samples have tested positive for a diuretic. I started thinking about this and thought well, “Does this now mean before every major competition, I need to send samples to a laboratory to ensure I haven’t eaten contaminated meat or whatever? ” I was listening to a podcast recently from WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency). Even though they’re saying the testing now, they can detect such small samples of things that they are getting more and more false positives.

 In this case, the fact that it is a diuretic, which has been shown in the past to mask other things, raises eyebrows. You think, “Well, what was he trying to wash out? Why was it a positive sample for that? “

So either way, whether he is guilty or innocent, it’s just a sad and scary time in the sport, but one I suppose is necessary. Because there’s more money coming in, there’s more incentive to cheat, and with that, the doping control and things need to get stricter and better. 

AS. So, are you in favour of more doping at  “international level events”  or even out-of-competition testing for the top athletes?

TJ. Yes. I mean, the current testing system within trail running is a bit of a joke when compared to, say, cycling or other elite sports. The only time I’ve had to give whereabouts is in preparation for the World Champs last year. I’ve never been tested, but I think the majority of trail athletes have never been tested outside of competition. So, it could be so easy to get away with something in training and clean up before a competition. You see documentaries all the time like Icarus, or there was a good one on the BBC some years back when a reporter cheated the blood passport as well by microdosing. So yes, it needs to get stricter, but of course, it brings in the problem of the cost and who will pay for the extra testing.

 AS. I’m sure this debate will run and run. 

On that note, we will wrap up. Great chatting again, and good luck in the Canaries next week,

TJ. Thank you. Nice talking to you. Thanks.

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Adrian Tarit Stott.

The author is a former GB 24 hour ultra international with over 100 ultra race completions.  He has also been involved organising ultra distance races for over 30 years.  Still an active recreational runner, he is currently a member of UKA’s Ultra Running Advisory Group (URAG) and part of the selection and team management for both Scottish and GB ultra teams.He is also a freelance writer in his spare time, contributing articles and reports to several websites and magazines including Athletics Weekly and Irunfar.